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welcome to the hidden truth show podcast

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we're about to play for you as an

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excerpt from our interview with dr. Jack

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Drescher he is a psychiatrist in a

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leading expert on gender and sexuality

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state legislators have been relying on

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his expertise and passing laws that make

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it difficult for parents to treat

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children with gender dysphoria

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they're only permitted for instance in

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the state of California to provide

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gender affirming care when they say

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gender affirming care that does not mean

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affirming the child's gender that he was

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born with it means affirming the gender

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that is in the child's head allowing the

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boy to wear a dress change his name

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provide hormone blockers and ultimately

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changes genitalia you'll see in this

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interview though that dr. jack jessee

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himself who has been relied upon in the

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passing of these laws acknowledges that

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the laws have gotten ahead of the

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science well it's always the parents

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choice which went to pursue because

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there's nobody mandating to the parents

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which clinic they should bring their

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child to and that is in fact you know

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it's an interesting question

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you know because apparently the number

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of children who are appearing in gender

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clinics today who have already been

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socially transitioned by their parents

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now exceeds the number of cases that are

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in the research literature of these

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gender clinics so parents already doing

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things before they even come to see the

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experts and they're making decisions and

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the and the and the ones who are

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socially transitioned before puberty

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this is called a gender affirmative

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approach it's practice in many clinics

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here in the United States you know and

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they basically say you know the this is

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when your child's true gender is and

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we're going to you know help you talk to

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the school get a name change and do the

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assignment and the question there

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something I've written about is since

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some of the literature suggests that

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early social transition increase the

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possibility of persistence are you

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increasing you know are you sort of

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solidifying the trend

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gender presentation by doing this social

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transition again the research is not

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clear we don't know whether that's the

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case or not

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and the people argue well if the child

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grows out of it after puberty they can

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just transition back as if this were us

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you know a simple thing to do when we

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know that transitioning one direction

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requires a lot of psychological and

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family and social support so so that's

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my main critique of the gender

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affirmative approach that they don't

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really know how to tell the difference

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and that they might be pushing some

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children in the direction they do not

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necessarily need to go in but at the

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same time the the Canadian approach

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which was you know to deny children and

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to try and change children at an early

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age they have never done double-blind

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controlled studies to see you know

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whether that technique actually prevents

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it because you you know even the Dutch

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clinic which doesn't do that has people

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children who grow out of it so as I said

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you know so you look at what people are

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doing and basically people doing what

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they feel like doing you know and

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they're doing what they think works so

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there just isn't enough science yet to

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determine which of the three approaches

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is the proper approach and it needs to

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be left up altum Utley it's up to the

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parents to choose which one that I would

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say that's pretty clear I mean I've

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written some textbook chapters on the

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subject and and I said you know and they

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you give a test you know a chapter you

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give a sample history of a child what do

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you do with this child and then depend

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you know then you can outline the

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approach the three different approaches

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that people use and parents get to

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choose so what about these laws that are

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being passed in the various states you

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know California was the first one you

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talked about it being sexual orientation

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change efforts and at least in

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California that's defined to include

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efforts to change behaviors or gender

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expressions yes so if you want to if the

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parents wanted to pursue option one

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which is to try to help the child to

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identify with his biological sex what

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but the child is wanting to where it's a

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boy and wanting to wear dresses

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isn't that the parents trying to change

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gender expressions and that would be a

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prohibited treatment in California well

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first of all I don't think the the the

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laws that currently exist are about I

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don't know 16 14 states Washington DC

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and

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municipalities that make it the prohibit

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a clinician from trying to change so you

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know so the laws are based on licensed

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clinicians that has nothing I don't

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think the parents necessarily are at

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risk you know the laws are very

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interesting because the laws are

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starting with the California law are

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based on the idea that they use position

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statements of the mental health

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organizations like the American

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Psychiatric Association American

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Psychological Association which are all

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based on positions taken regarding

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trying to change their child's secular

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and the grown-ups not so much children

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but you know anybody's sexual

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orientation not on gender identity what

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the laws did is they quoted all the

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reports and then they tagged on gender

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identity and gender expression you know

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at the end even though the position

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statement I don't believe either my APA

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American Psychiatric or the other APA

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have a position on what to do about

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children officially so this way the law

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has moved ahead of the science or don't

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you know or you know is different you

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know it's not about the science the law

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is about I think really trying to you

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know protect children based on you know

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I wish to protect children from unknown

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treatments that might be harmful

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mm-hm so at least that part of any law

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you would kind of disagree with that if

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this is preventing treatment a of the

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three options for treatment of dysphoria

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that you believe these laws are going

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too far in that regard I don't know I've

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actually been in you know I wrote an

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amicus brief for the California law and

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I and when New Jersey passed a similar

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law the the attorney general's office

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asked me to write a you know an expert

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defense of the law and you know in both

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cases the laws were challenged in court

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and the laws were accepted now I think

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trying to I do think trying to change a

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child's gender identity can be harmful

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to the child I do think that but I but

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what but you know the so in that regard

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even though that's my personal opinion

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you know that's not you know that's not

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necessarily based on science but it is

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my

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yeah so I think it's a risk when

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governments step in to science and start

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dictating science to people when things

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are unresolved and taking options away

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from here well exactly you know so you

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know I recently was asked to blind

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review an article for an ethics journal

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that that said that in the event that

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parents would not give their children

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puberty suppression the state should

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step in you know and for it you know and

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overrule the wishes of the parents and

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my response was I thought this was an

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interesting article but that an article

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girl like that should not really be

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published as its sole article you need

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other opinions simply because you know

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it's a controversial subject about what

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to do with the kids and to say the state

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should take an action when there isn't

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enough medical science to support the

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action when the medical science is

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controversial is I think would you know

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something that needs to is a political

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question it's not a medical question so

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again that would be a situation where

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you think the the government's going too

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far well I I think I yeah I would I

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don't want you I don't want to answer

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that question because I don't know if

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god I don't know if the government has

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gone too far I think the government has

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to carefully consider it I think you

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need more careful consideration this is

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what I find in this area there's not

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enough weighing of different ethical

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restraints and ethical directives and

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making the decision so so one could

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argue you know yes you know that it is

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going too far but one could also argue

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that you know here's a child here's a

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child who's suffering and and allowing

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the child's suffering to continue

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because we don't have enough information

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is not a necessarily an ethical position

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to take either

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yeah well it's a trial that needs

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treatment of some sorts and that that

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treatment may wind up being drugs and

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surgery and the state isn't seeking to

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ban the drugs and surgery but for some

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reason the state seems to want to banned

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the the psychological therapy well there

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is no evidence that psychological

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therapies to try and change your gender

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identity works just like there is no

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evidence to show that trying to change a

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psychologic

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Changez yeah I mean we thought I'd be

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basing all the there isn't enough

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science on any of this so that's why you

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just seem to me shutting any of it down

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before there's enough science even the

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EPA's own report says that there's three

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possible treatments for this and by the

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state of California is about to shut

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down one of the three well you know that

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there already did so our province of

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Ontario Ontario did shut down to Toronto

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clinic back in 2015 and fired the

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longtime director how did you feel about

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that

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well I think it was not a good thing you

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know I mean I think you know that I

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think that the arguments that they made

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because they first they passed a law

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based pretty much on the text of the

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California law and then accusations were

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made against the person around the

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clinic and sucker who was in head of the

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charge the disome committee who was a

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person reviled by the transgender

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community I don't think he got a fair

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hearing and I think you know again we

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don't have enough information to know I

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personally don't find that particular

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model of treatment compelling you know

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but I think that they did you know they

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had a number of patients and who came

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out of the clinic who were satisfied

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with that treatment to if you enjoyed

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that part of the interview tune in to

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the hidden truth show podcast to get the

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entire interview it's available wherever